The following are some thoughts on the relationship between the Church and State that respond to a friend's comments on this topic:
Greg, I share the sentiments you expressed above. My main concern for some time now has been the confusion of earthly political entities with the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus made it clear that His kingdom is not of this world. The church and political entities are not identical. I agree that we live in what continues to be the greatest nation in the world (in a number of different ways). But the church is first, and foremost, about advancing God's kingdom.
I don't disagree with Jeff's comment that our freedoms were bought with a price, a price that should be honored. But is the church the proper venue for bestowing such honor? Or should we rather give God glory for providentially ordering the affairs of the world such that we are free to proclaim the gospel. To Jeff, I would respond: whether we are free to proclaim the gospel or not is relatively immaterial to the theological issue at hand. God-called ministers proclaim the gospel whether the state sanctions that activity or not.
I agree that Christians should work for the common good; politically, socially, intellectually. But the focus of the church should be on God’s glory and bringing the nations into His kingdom. I don’t deny that God may have, indeed, blessed America specifically or His purposes. But I take any of God’s blessings as a responsibility to use those gifts to invest in His kingdom work.
Given that our nation has become so secular and the state sanctions many things that are an abomination to God, I am not comfortable pledging my allegiance to the United States. As a Christian, my only allegiance is to Christ. I happen to live in a country that God has blessed and I am thankful for that. I think America still has some good things left in it and some good things left to offer. I even served my country in the United States Marine Corps for four years. I do not hate my country, but theologically, I must content that there is a distinct difference between America (and American civil religion) and the Church (Christianity).
Humbly submitted for reflection and edification.
Ben Kimmell
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6 comments:
Ben, loved your thoughts! I think it is important to remind people that America was built on anarchy, slavery and war from its infancy. This is no doubt the hand of Providence, but you and I both know that God's providence over all the affairs of men is not the same thing as His mission to redeem a people in Christ. I would argue, as you alluded to, that how He governs the nations paves the way to the spread of the Gospel since He works all things after the counsel of His will, but I cant equate the American Revolution with the furtherance of the Kingdom of Christ on the earth as some would like me to do.
Christians should use the numerous resources and "blessings" this country enables them to have to proclaim the Gospel at all costs. I think maybe somewhere in all of this many American Christians forget that America needs the Gospel as much as any country!
As for Jeff, I plan to respond to him a little later. Its interesting how many believers will talk about freedom to worship and our independence in the same sentence, as if the reason for our independence was freedom to worship. I like what you said about proclaiming the Gospel whether the state allows it or not. Communist China by no means has the freedom that we do to worship, yet if trends continue with the underground church, Christians will compose about 30% of the 1.5 billion people in China in the next 20 years! Freedom to worship does not guarantee authenticity in worship!
GB
Great thoughts on separation of church and state. I would first like to say that I would agree wholeheartedly to what you are saying. My disagreement with Greg's blog was that the importance of such a holiday was not great enough to advance the Gospel. I believe that choosing to ignore such is belittling to a veteran who perhaps went into service at God's calling.
I understand where you and Greg are coming from with separation of church and state, and how a minister's actions should be in line with that of God's will rather than a state holiday. However, I'd argue that the church is a perfect venue to celebrate our country's independence. Please don't confuse my argument of freedom of religion as being more important than that of the Great Commission or a minister's calling to preach the Gospel. My ultimate point is that God has provided us with a nation where we can freely debate such topics and writing this freedom off as immaterial to the advancement of the Gospel is illogical. As for China, I have a great friend that will be serving as a missionary there in the near future and he will be able to rely on support (finacially and spiritually) from his American church. An oppressed nation cannot do these things with such efficiency. Why then is it not appropriate to spend time in our church discussing what a great nation we live in?
Greg, I never intended to imply that the reason for our independence was to secure freedom of religion. Yet, God's presence was felt in the victory of this fight. The fact remains that our nation was truly the first that allowed for a freedom of religion. I understand that you have a bone to pick with how we view our country, political party, etc., as being ordained by God (i.e. The church's job is to advance America). I'm in complete agreeance with this part of you reasoning. I just think you miss the mark by completely avoiding the powerful works God has done, is doing, and will do with our great nation.
Jeff, it seems we agree on many issues here, save one, I cannot in good conscience celebrate the 4th of July as a Christian holiday, i.e. center a service around it. I am not dismissing the good that this country has done and what it will do but I do not see how the missionary endeavor is somehow influenced for good (certainly America has the funds). But missions have been going on well before America was established. In fact I would argue that the myth we are a Christian nation/God's chosen nation (though I don't think you believe this), has hurt global missions.
For one, America is as decadent and pagan as any country that we send missionaries to. But also many countries cant see the beauty of the Cross because the flag and all that America is associated with (i.e. greed, power, violence, immorality) is in the way. One might even argue that because the of the materialism in America, it has choked away the generosity of the Church since a mere tithe by American Christians could (if properly allocated) end world poverty and evangelize the world!
Celebrating America this way and assuming that God has fought our battles so to speak, is a celebration that our guns were bigger than everyone else's. One would be hard pressed to read the Gospels and think that Jesus wanted His people to own, use, or take over the power of Caesar.
GB
Jeff,
I can see that honoring veterans that have served to defend and protect our unique freedoms is important to you, as it should be. As I stated in the original post, I support the separation of church and state since they are distinct entities with different purposes.
And there is a sense in which I do think that we have been on the right side of history in opposing Nazism and the horrors it perpetrated. I think it was good to oppose the expansion of communism which is built on a humanistic political philosophy that maintains a distorted anthropology regarding the goodness of man.
But I think Greg makes some good points about the excesses of our culture obscuring the Christian witness in our society. And the truth is, we've done many unjust things to many people groups in the past (i.e. the decimation and repatriation of Native Americans, slavery--which was finally defeated based on Christian principles about the equality of all human beings made in the image of God.)
As far as church services go, I agree with Greg that I would not order a church service around celebrating independence day. But what I would do is refer to what our nation is celebrating and that we are bless of God to have the freedoms we have. I might, as you suggest, point out that our freedoms have enabled us to develop, deploy, and support tremendous missions efforts. I would, then, probably segue into the gospel message as the ultimate expression of freedom. Freedom from the bondage of sin, freedom from wrath and judgment, free to live in the fullness and grace of Christ.
But I must say, when we hold services where we pledge our allegiance to the United States and then turn to the Christian flag and make a similar pledge of allegiance, I cannot help but wonder if we are not, in some way, almost performing an act of worship to the state given the context of the worship service.
I have no quarrel with honoring people who have done honorable things, but I would want to protect the sanctity of the Church and the gospel by being careful not to conflate it with the state.
Blessings,
Ben
Hey guys I enjoyed the banter throughout the day. I must say that it is enjoyable for me to dive into back and forth ideas and opinions. I hope that this will not end up being a cause of trouble for you Greg as someone named Shane Glover has seemed to encountered. While I have admittedly not indulged in Greg Boyd, I have briefly overlooked his ideas on the subject. It is kind of uneasy for me and just wanted to say that he is human. Is this issue a salvation issue? I would need to read deeper. Boyd admits to losing some of his congregation and Shane says he was ousted. It might have been that Shane was not very good with words as he was describing his supposedly Christian church goers as "brainwashed" and involved in paganism. (Obviously he was convicted to do so!)
Anyway, Greg and Ben I enjoyed it and continue to do great things for the Lord.
Jeff,
Thanks for stopping by. Please feel free to comment on any post any time.
Ben
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